Full Transcript:

Cariann Higginbotham: Coming up on Web 2.0 Wednesday – Web as a platform and what does this mean? For April 25^th, 2007, recorded live with audience participation.

[Music]

Benjamin Higginbotham: I am Benjamin Higginbotham and with me is Ed Kohler.

Ed Kohler: Hello.

Benjamin Higginbotham: And it is Web 2.0 Wednesday, we are doing this live on Ustream.tv as well as TalkShoe.com, as we do everyday at 12 o’clock Eastern, 11 o’clock Central, 9 o’clock Pacific. So, please make sure to join us because we do interact with the audience. Ed, today is your day.

Ed Kohler: Really?

Benjamin Higginbotham: Yup, it is all about Web 2.0 and being that you are a Web 2.0 Guru, let’s talk little bit about Web as a platform and what this means?

Ed Kohler: Right, well Web 2.0 it is a umbrella term that covers a lot of different changes in technology and how people are using the web. So, I thought today why don’t we just take a look at one of those aspects and that would be using the web as a platform. So, there are lot of things that you can do on the web today that you couldn’t do before or just because you can do on the web, doesn’t mean you should. So, I don’t know why don’t we just look at few of these ideas and see what we can figure out.

Benjamin Higginbotham: We will start off with Google Docs and Spreadsheets.

Ed Kohler: For Google Docs and Spreadsheets, anyone uses Microsoft Word and Google Docs knows that, Google Docs is a horrible-horrible application. I mean if you put the two up against each other there is no comparison at all, but at the same time Google Docs is gaining in popularity, I am using it for more and more of the content that I write most of the blog posts I write, I write in Google Docs, it just needs the way to format things and I can easily pull out the HTML and then it post it into blog post from there.

Benjamin Higginbotham: Well, you say it is a horrible application, I think it depends on what you want to do? If you are looking for a full featured client application that does everything under the sun, yeah, you are right, but if you just look into write something down really quick, you just need to make quick text document, I don’t thing there is anything all that wrong with Google Docs, now Spreadsheets not so much, but Google Docs, the old rightly stuff..

Ed Kohler: Well, exactly and it is funny because I think when Google Docs launched, there were articles that came out they said “this, will never take down Microsoft Word, because it doesn’t do half of what you can do at Microsoft Word”, you can’t do fancy tables within it or you can’t do, I don’t know, mail merges or , whatever the heck people what to do, but really how do people use a program like this today and what do they use it for? If you are writing a paper, a term paper or something just any sort of paper for class, working on your resume or something like that, you can do those things, just fine.

Benjamin Higginbotham: Well, Moe Cheeks in Ustream said, it is a great option for someone who’s computer only came with Microsoft Works and you may be you want a little bit more than what Microsoft Works is going to give you and actually I think, I will agree, I think that would be Google Docs.

Ed Kohler: Right yeah, it might be even come out with Microsoft Works, because it is a Mac, so…

Benjamin Higginbotham: And as Geek Right mentions your docs are anywhere, so you can get to them anywhere if you have got a computer at home and a computer at work or if you want to work on the road, would require an EVDO card, but as long as you have got an Internet connection, you have got your documents on any computer that can touch the Internet, that can not to be said for a word document, but at the same time that brings us a big security problem, because now your documents can be anywhere.

Ed Kohler: Right and that is one of the concerns that comes out of that. We have that the trade off there where, you were giving us some functionality by going to the web based program, but like people are saying in Ustream, that's not necessarily a bad thing, because there are new benefits that come out of it, such as been really collaborator on the document, that’s really powerful. It is often where, one of us will say write a blog post and share with the other person and take a look at it before it goes live, you know have some thoughts on that and clean it up a bit, that’s something that it is just so much easier to do with a web based document and by flopping around an attachment, so…

Benjamin Higginbotham: What about being able to tie Google Docs using the API into other applications? For example, you can write your blog post in Google Docs and then have it automatically post to your blog, couldn’t that be used for a backend for a content management system or for a some sort of customer system like a salesforce.com type system?

Ed Kohler: I think we will see things like that where businesses will be able to create templates, within Google Docs and have a pre-populate and have be most the document already there, so that will be probably pretty powerful thing that will come out of it overtime and I think even it could be used for something like signing documents overtime, because it keeps a revision history of every change that’s been made to that documents, so we can say this person initialed this document on this date, so that’s pretty powerful. So, on the security side, this is one that is now becoming the bigger issue because we now have Google making over a push into business enterprise or at least small business to mid-size business at this point, they keep saying that they are not, at the same time they are providing the services, they are bit of under showing what they are doing. So, of course as they move more into business type stuff businesses, IT groups in particular are concerned about security. Well, there are security concerns involved with having your contents sit elsewhere, but there are plenty of security concerns within your own organization. I don’t think there are that many differences there.

Benjamin Higginbotham: Well, I don’t know, I think it is not in my control syndrome because if they can’t directly control that, they feel like, they can’t secure it themselves and so I think there is a little bit of that and if it is in the corporate IT world, if it is behind the firewall, I mean that’s going to be a little bit more secure than just giving it to Google, because who know what Google is going to do with it.

Ed Kohler: Yeah may be, but I think in most IT security breaches that doesn’t have anything to crossing a firewall, it has to do with personal issues as someone walking into a building or handing over a document. The mass majority of security issues have nothing to do with some sort of more hardcore security breach.

Benjamin Higginbotham: I don’t know they have gotten to the point where they don’t even allow iPods in the buildings now or flash drives, so that you can’t just mount a USB memory stick and just pop your document over and then give it to someone else. A lot of the IT administers will lock down all that functionality to try to prevent stuff like that and if they are that phobic, I just don’t see them putting anything on a shared server like Google.

Ed Kohler: Yeah, a company with that mentality certainly isn’t going to with someone like this. So, if it is, say with government security they probably won’t be able to do it. In banking, I remember working in a banking industry where everyday we had to tie up our trash bag at the end of the day and initial it, and it was stored for certain amount of time before it was disposed, just in case something went missing, so it is a different type of security when you get into something like that.

Benjamin Higginbotham: That’s really freaky, I never would have even thought of that.

Ed Kohler: You don’t want to work in that kind of environment.

Benjamin Higginbotham: No, I definitely don’t. All right, what about like geni.com?

Ed Kohler: Well, geni.com is a great example of web based document, where collaboration is really what it is all about. For those who are not familiar with this, G-E-N-I.com and it is an online genealogy website where we profiled it other day on Technology Evangelist, but basically you can go in there and build your family tree online and every time you add a new member to your family tree, it invites them into the system and they can add who they know, so overtime it just builds and builds, but that sort of living document is something that just can be done online so much better that could be done in another formats. If you had a client based genealogy program, it just becomes the domain of one person who can work on it or if you have a paper type system, you are putting a lot of work at risk, if something was to happen with that paper. So, it is something that by using the web as a platform, it has become much, much easier to do this type of work, so.

Benjamin Higginbotham: It becomes viral too? Doesn’t it?

Ed Kohler: It has, it definitely has in my family where, you never know who is going to be the person who is really passionate about this stuff, but I have an uncle and my father in law who both have really jumped on that and added tons of people into the system.

Benjamin Higginbotham: And Geek Right says the same thing, his Dad loves it. Can anyone that has email address for, which is absolutely true and your going to do that, because you want to add everyone in your family, you probably going to have all their email addresses and that’s going to push out and they going to add everyone they know, they are going to have as many email or address is.

Ed Kohler: Yeah, exactly.

Benjamin Higginbotham: And for the family member who is already been keeping track of this, what a great way to share it with the rest of the family.

Ed Kohler: Yeah, I think it certainly seem powerful to me and the program is getting better too, using a few weeks ago, where there are a few glitches on, certain types of non-traditional family structures where, like you would have a family where there was a different mother for one of the brothers or things that they just hadn’t quite encountered yet, but have pretty good forum where these issues are being brought up in their addressing them, technology wise.

Benjamin Higginbotham: All right, what about an application like Basecamp? How is that good as web platform as supposed to a client app?

Ed Kohler: Basecamp is an interesting one, it is one we have been using a bit, we use that to do list manage some of the tasks involved in updates we want to make to our blog, for example where you can go in there and just easily quickly brain storm and resort the things and assign out tassk to different people and just check boxes as you knocking them off, so it is nice that it is a easily sharable application, but I found recently, we have just dropped off using that.

Benjamin Higginbotham: We have, but why?

Ed Kohler: I don’t know, I was just thinking about whether this is because it is yet another login that we need to remember and another site we have to go to in order to find out this information, where if we just use something that’s really not to do this application, but if we put that same information at Google Spreadsheets or even just in a Google Doc would it just be one less click to get to and make it more likely that will revisit that on regular basis, I am not sure like, but for us well, we really jumped on it ran with it for a quite a well, now it is just been forgotten.

Benjamin Higginbotham: Yeah, it actually was forgotten until I read it in our show notes, we are doing Basecamp and I was trying to remember what the heck it was, then like “oh! yeah” I remember the name, I can remember what it was and that comes up as next example which we will come back to Zoho the same thing happens with that. Is that an issue or is it because this is an online app, as suppose to a client app? Where I can just download it and launch it and off I go, is it because like you said, just that you had another login, should this be a client app and setup a web platform?

Ed Kohler: With Zoho, I think it is a matter of, I just preferred to use the Google applications that are out there. Zoho applications are probably more advanced than Google’s are today, it just more work to go over there and use that and once you are comfortable with an interface and you have everyone in your email address tied into and if you want to invite someone else in, they don’t have to learn Zoho’s particular platform in order to edit your document. So, there is just a little bit of pain involved in using Zoho over Google Docs, even though that’s where the better service doesn’t necessarily always win, this might be an example of that. So, I don’t know what’s going to happen to Zoho, may be they will get bought up by Yahoo, I think that might be a good move where it will give them a much larger audience all of a sudden.

Benjamin Higginbotham: And now, let’s they bought up by Yahoo, what would happen then? Because now you have got, let’s assume they tied to the Yahoo ID, now it is no longer one more ID I have to remember and it could be built into your Yahoo homepage, does that make it as powerful as Google Docs and Spreadsheets or would you continue using Google Docs and Spreadsheets?

Ed Kohler: I think it would for a lot of people, I think…

Benjamin Higginbotham: Well, I am asking you right now?

Ed Kohler: I am not sure about for myself because I think that I would have whatever I am using for my email platform be the one that sort of application gets tied into, but I am a daily user of Flickr, so and I use del.icio.us. so, there are Yahoo applications that I use, I have a Yahoo homepage, but as far as using that type of application I am still not sure it would send me on in, but it would be that one step closer to getting me to use it, but obviously Yahoo’s user base is a hell a lot bigger than the Zoho’s user base is right now. So, there are lot of people who are very happy with Yahoo and would probably jump on it, if it was available in and Yahooised where it just nice, friendly, clean, pretty and working.

Benjamin Higginbotham: I feel like we are trying to take just about every desk top app ever built and turn it into a web platform and put everything online into the browser and may be that I am too old school, but I am of the mentality that the browser is not the best way of deploying information, sometimes client app is better, have we moved pass that point, am I just too old school or is it really true that the browser just cannot do everything that we wanted to do?

Ed Kohler: Well, sometimes the client app definitely is better, even just when we start talking about that with Word, Word is way, way better than any online app, but it turns out for the word processing. The way people are actually using that content, the web might me a better way to do word processing, because as soon as you write a document, you are going to share, right? Well, you didn’t right for yourself and even with the Spreadsheet is same type of thing, when you didn’t crunch a bunch of numbers, just for your own personal interest, you probably did because you need to share with somebody. So, have a collaborative way to do that or may be a few people need to add information in to a Spreadsheet that’s another case of that where the more of that collaborative side of things might be more valuable than the additional power you get on the client side.

Benjamin Higginbotham: I know that we got quite a few people here who have used Google Spreadsheets and they just curse it, they say it is just not nearly where it needs to be, you are right that they want to share the information, but the can’t get the information in there that they need. Now, Google Docs I think it is a little bit different in that, it is just words, right? May be it is bold, may be it is little bit bigger and they have got all that functionality and you have got some basic tables support may be an image here and there. So, they have got that cover for we call it 80% of the users, but Google Spreadsheets just, I haven’t heard anyone that actually likes it.

Ed Kohler: Google Spreadsheets compared to Excel is probably a bigger difference than docs to word, I would especially before Google added any graphing capabilities, which is only like last week. So, that was the huge upgrade needed to be done there, if I was in account that’s absolutely no way, you could use an online spread sheet application there, because Spreadsheets are your life. So, a power users of the applications, there are things that just there is no way, it is going to work for you, but if you take any application like Google’s new PowerPoint that they don’t have it out, yet, but they have acquired a company that is a competitor to PowerPoint, but web based application to do that I think this is going to be one that will be a winner, because PowerPoint presentations are something that are almost always built collaboratively, we have a lot of people involved in building it, a lot of people who have say “how things going to be laid out? How we want to present this content and then once it is created the same content might be presented by more than one person in different setting stuff. So, having that as a single source I think it really would be powerful there.

Benjamin Higginbotham: Well, my big concern is that, OK, a lot of people use PowerPoint as nothing more than bullet points and they just read the bullet points off the PowerPoint slide and those PowerPoint’s are not what I am referring to here. The good PowerPoints are done really, really well. They have got really nice transitions from one point to the other point, they are usually not bullet points that large images, that have reflections and they just look great and you are able to talk back and forth between you and the PowerPoint, because it is extension of the presentation and I question whether a browser is going to be able to deliver the same type of presentation and really wow you and bring you into it that a PowerPoint or Keynote is going to be able to do. I mean, you look at an Apple keynote for example and those things are just amazing, they are just stunningly awesome, would they be able to use an online version of keynote to do that presentation?

Ed Kohler: My guess is that online versions are going to fall short on things like transitions, they are not going to put a lot of work into trying to figure out how to get Java script to do a Scooby-Doo effect or something between slides, I just don’t thing that’s really going to invest their time, but adding images into a slide is going to be something, that going to be able to do, obviously you will be able to do bullet slides if you care to, but hopefully people will figure out, I don’t think the limitations of the program are going to be the problem as much as limitations of someone’s ability to create a good presentation.

Benjamin Higginbotham: Actually Geek Right brings up a good point, saying “we are not too far away, look at flash online today” and actually that is a good point. You could look at flash as a very powerful presentation application that’s incredibly hard to build presentations for it, I mean no general user could do that, a home user couldn’t do that. Not that home users are building this, but a CEO cannot build their own presentation. My big concern is…

Ed Kohler: But, if you create a PowerPoint app using flash, you could make a consumer friendly presentation application that’s built in flash and web based.

Benjamin Higginbotham: I wonder if it is been done before. I personally haven’t seen anything, but that would be a very, very powerful application. A flash front-end and back-end to display it, you could do some really cool things with that.

Ed Kohler: Another part of this too is the actual presenting, every presentation I think it will be done offline, I don think people are for the most part going to be actually presenting their slides through the browser or through a full screen, I think there is going to be some sort of reader where you are actually downloading the presentation and presenting it from an offline version.

Benjamin Higginbotham: That’s the next point I was going to bring up, because again let’s say we are doing an Apple keynote speech and the Internet goes down, now what?

Ed Kohler: Right.

Benjamin Higginbotham: Because, that happens lot at large convention centers and whatnot, where the Internet will just flake out, just because there are so many people are using it and or the line just sucks, going into the building and nothing you can do to control. So, there has to be an offline version of it, which brings us back to the question of, so then what’s the point of having it online?

Ed Kohler: The actual creation of it.

Benjamin Higginbotham: If I have to bring it back offline again, why not just use a client app?

Ed Kohler: Because, if you want to have multiple people working on it, who are sitting in different offices or in different buildings having one uniform application that one single sort of data that they are working on, I think that’s what the power is.

Benjamin Higginbotham: You couldn't just use like a file server and grab the file of the file server.

Ed Kohler: I don’t think it is done that often, I think in most cases even if they are working on it in a shared document location, I think today most people they will create a PowerPoint in their own area on the shared server or on their desktop and then they mail it out to someone and ask them for some review points on it, next you know the mail server is getting clogged up with zillions of copies of PowerPoint, as it get bounces back and forth then you have reconcile all the changes when they get back to you. They have come from zillion people or if instead you just sent invitations out to a single document that would just be a much better way to do it, but having it, I would not want to be presenting, I wouldn’t mind it that much, but a lot of people would not to present a live web document in the presentation, where he have Bob from accounting who has to carry his computer over to a conference room and then get hooked up on the Internet, next thing his login doesn’t work in that room for some reason and the whole room gets held up because of it, that’s not a good experience.

Benjamin Higginbotham: Moe Cheeks just got back, said “just graduated from college and the dump email model is exactly how most groups handle PowerPoint”, what you are saying makes sense. If you can do online collaboration absolutely

Ed Kohler: Yeah, but training people out of that is hard too.

Benjamin Higginbotham: Absolutely, it is a new thing, it is new and different. It is the same as going from Office 2003 to Office 2007, it is not even remotely close to the same. So, having to train your entire staff, which can be costly let’s look at a very large companies, Carlson companies for example, which is just gynormous. You have to train thousands of thousands of people to now use this online version, that’s not going to be very good and what about the extra bandwidth? When you are working with it online, everything is now going through your Internet trunk and if you are very large company, if you migrate all your docs and your PowerPoint and your Spreadsheets to online information, now instead of just using internal bandwidth you are using external bandwidth as well. We are just start seeing increases in that and there is additional cost associate to that.

Ed Kohler: Yeah, but I think the costs are nominal for the bandwidth versus the cost of increase productivity. So, that’s the cause I think most businesses are willing to absorb.

Benjamin Higginbotham: May be.

Ed Kohler: If it's was justified.

Benjamin Higginbotham: I don’t know, it was back to…

Ed Kohler: If they opened up a Google Spreadsheet and ran the numbers.

Benjamin Higginbotham: But then it also goes back to the security problem, so they will say, “OK, yeah we can collaborate better, but we can’t run the server behind a firewall”. I just see that happen in lot, I just don’t see this breaking into the fortune 500 company, I think this will be great for SMB (Small Medium Business), right? May be 15 employees or smaller, may be even up to a hundred employees or smaller, but once you get much larger than that, I feel like the IT team is going to step in and IT does not like change, they don’t like losing control either, so I just don’t see them letting much of anything move to web platform. Right or wrong, that’s just…

Ed Kohler: I think it will be a long time for your CIO of a fortune 500 company says “we are going to switch to using Google Apps and we are no longer going to buy Office applications for our computers”, that’s pretty far fetched that we are going to see anything like that anytime soon, but…

Benjamin Higginbotham: Why? Let’s say that they use openoffice.org for their local machines just in case and then Google Docs and Spreadsheets, why do we need to be that far off for that? Now we have got a local version that’s free and an online version that we can use for collaboration and you can download a local copy of the document, if you want to from Google Docs.

Ed Kohler: Well, if you are the CIO of a company with 10,000 employees and you are going to propose that? You would have one hell of lot of resistance coming your way and so I think that they are pretty much risk adverse, the role of a CIO is to make sure stuff runs, it is not a push technology as much as you would like to believe? So, they are not the ones, who are saying “we need to do this”, but…

Benjamin Higginbotham: Didn’t you just argue my point of this isn’t going to really take hold for me?

Ed Kohler: With massive corporations not, but here is what’s going to happen, enterprise and employees will do it anyway and overtime it will trickle up through the enterprise and then it will become enterprise application, once it just becomes default use. So, that’s how things really happen I think.

Benjamin Higginbotham: Interesting concept, how long do you think that process is going to take? Even here at the Technology Evangelist studios, it is you and I use Google Docs and Spreadsheets, but most of the company uses Word still. I still get those attachments in our email everyday, drives me bonkers.

Ed Kohler: Right, yeah it takes a long time and lot of things will spread by word of mouth within a corporation, they just find out a better way of doing things and once they figure it out, they are not going to go back.

Benjamin Higginbotham: Do you think Google is going to create a server version of Docs and Spreadsheets and Presentation or whatever they are called that will be allow those larger corporations to stick the server behind their firewall and like they are doing Google for business right now. Well, it is not really behind the firewall, but at least you can point your MX records over there and customize it for you. Do you think they will have something like that for those people who worried about security, so that you can control everything, but still use their apps?

Ed Kohler: Possible, but I think that is the opportunity for Microsoft, wouldn't a share point server be something that would potentially do that.

Benjamin Higginbotham: Could be.

Ed Kohler: I think Microsoft has the relationship with corporations and it is much easier for CTO or CIO of a company to simply go with Microsoft’s latest solution to this problem than is to switch it out entirely to Google. Like for example, I just read yesterday that Microsoft has 85 million licenses as a share point cost, 17,000 companies, so that’s a pretty serious install base, whether they charge for those or how much they charge for those I don’t know and I don’t know how much of that’s actually been used, but that’s a pretty solid install base, where they could do something with that, if they create some good applications that run on that and it would have easy for people to use.

Benjamin Higginbotham: Well, it feels like Google is just want up in Microsoft with all this stuff, they keep saying this is not a competitor office, this is not going to replace all that stuff, but when you look at it, that looks like where they are going. So, I am trying to figure out, is that what they are going to do? Are they going to find a way to create something that the CIO and CTO will be comfortable with, putting behind their firewall, so that they can take Microsoft essentially head on without actually taking Microsoft head on from marketing perspective.

Ed Kohler: And how can you possibly develop an application that’s installed at 17,000 separate companies as fast you can develop an application which is installed in one company, that’s used by anybody, I don’t know how they can possibly keep up? Just the revisions in terms of installs. So you can come out with the feature, but actually rolling them out and figure out a way, in Microsoft’s case the charge forum, I don’t know.

Benjamin Higginbotham: So, what would you not put in a browser from a web platform standpoint? We have got video on the browser today, we have got Spreadsheets, PowerPoint, Word, what’s left? What doesn’t work in the browser?

Ed Kohler: That’s a good question, I mean you can do video on the browser today like Jumpcut for example, but it is not as good as even something like iMovie, I mean it is obviously no Final Cut Pro, but that when where there is so much conditions involved in moving that type of contents around that, I don’t if one that’s ready for the web with video editing or not video editing, but photo editing? Some things you can do at the client level, I haven’t seen done on a web base like batch editing of photos, like we use to like a some sort of color correction type system that you want to build a quite a lot of photos, I haven’t seen that yet. It is something I am sure it could be done though, because I have seen applications online that allow simple color correction and things sort of or redeye reduction or just common things that people do to photos.

Benjamin Higginbotham: Geek Right is saying that everything is going to melt together and the OS will be web based sooner or later and that was Sun’s model back in the day, wasn’t it? Where it was bunch of dummy terminals and essentially, it is all about the network and it feels like they were just 20 years too early in saying that, but even so there is some really hardcore apps like you said, like Final Cut Pro, that I have a hard time seeing in today’s version of a web browser, that’s not to say that it will never get done. It just feels like we were pushing the extremes of what the web browser can do with like Ajax and Dojo and it is about time that we revise the browser and someone needs to come by I think and just give it good swift kick in the pants to let us take it over that next hurdle and I haven’t seen that yet. Firefox 3 doesn’t appear to be it…

Ed Kohler: But, I think with Firefox 3, I think there is move towards offline web browsing, where it could be something where it could be something where with an online Spreadsheets for example, you could take that offline and work on it and then when you are back at the Internet again you could then re-sync your changes. So, it will bring the flexibility to people who have to hop on an airplane or for some reason get away from the Internet connection, they would still be able to work. So, that’s powerful, but if we can get to that point where you can take a web app and move it to an offline state and then back into the online state, why not move it offline and then have extensions that are extraordinarily powerful, that actually make the web app work more like a client app for, if you could create a firefox extension that was like a mini Final Cut Express version, something like that, then may be that’s the way it can get done.

Benjamin Higginbotham: And what about cross platform, cross browser compatibility at clearly we kill it then, because the Firefox extension, it is only going to work in Firefox, doesn’t that sort of defeat the purpose of being web app 2.0?

Ed Kohler: No, Firefox extension's cross platform.

Benjamin Higginbotham: Not all of them.

Ed Kohler: Well, it is getting pretty close.

Benjamin Higginbotham: All right, I don’t I feel like that’s a…

Ed Kohler: The web app isn’t necessarily cross browser and cross platform compatible either.

Benjamin Higginbotham: That’s true, it should be. We see a lot of companies trying to strive for that, but you are right, not all of them are. It feels like though the extension is a hack, it feels like, may be I am just crazy, but I really feel like the browser needs to be over hauled to support some of this next generation, we will call Web 3.0 type of stuff. It feels like Web 2.0 has pushed the browsers as far as they going to go, Firefox 3 is going to let us take that offline, but haven’t seen a lot in Firefox 3 that other than they had been able to take it offline. That’s really made me say “wow, that’s amazing”, that’s going to be the next big thing and then we got a way from Microsoft to catch up and that will take another five years.

Ed Kohler: That could be where it goes, we will see. I think people’s computers are very, very powerful today, but they are not really been utilized to their full extent, because of web app doesn’t really put that much stress on it. So, I think companies that could figure out how to use that computing power that people have sitting on their desk are going to peel the provider pretty good user experience for people.

Benjamin Higginbotham: All right, Ed Kohler thank you so much for joining us today, it was fun. Tomorrow we are going to bring you back for search Thursday, it is all about SEO/SEM again your neck of the woods, remember to join us live on Ustream.tv at 12 o’clock Eastern, 11 o’clock Central and 9 o’clock Pacific or in TalkShoe and that is at same times at TalkShoe.com. Thank you so much for joining us everyone live and we will talk with you tomorrow.